tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post1811177105317442718..comments2023-10-20T07:14:40.841-03:00Comments on Ecumenicity: Ware on TrinityTom B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post-35178390747134559622007-09-16T19:00:00.000-03:002007-09-16T19:00:00.000-03:00Gil,I greatly appreciate you taking the time to sy...Gil,<BR/><BR/>I greatly appreciate you taking the time to synthesize that point. It was excellently done! This comports with Ware's less-detailed analysis, that the West used the clause to combat Arianism (that they needed to because the Latin was less precise seems quite believable). I think I misunderstand your earlier implication. I thought you were stressing that the underlying substantively different views between East and West on the nature of eternal procession was caused by this translation. I now understand better that the translation (and the apparent limitation of Latin) account more for the West's change to the Creed than for the substantive doctrinal disagreement. <BR/><BR/>But then the point that taking that Latin change and pushing it back into the Greek did foster a substantive difference is not lost on me either. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>Peace in Christ,<BR/>Thos.Tom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post-54468374311145379772007-09-16T17:37:00.000-03:002007-09-16T17:37:00.000-03:00I'll synthesize the presentation: Ekporeuesthai si...I'll synthesize the presentation: Ekporeuesthai signifies a going forth in which the terminus B is really distinct from the starting point A.<BR/><BR/>This kind of procession is what St. Augustine called principaliter (De Trinitate 15). The Catholic Church as always acknowledged the Father as the source of the Holy Trinity.<BR/><BR/>Procedere stresses the connection between A & B: for instance, the stroke of a pencil proceeds from point A to point B on a piece of paper. The Latin stresses the starting point of a continuous process. St. Thomas remarks in the Summa (Ia, q36, a2), that among the verbs of procession, procedere is among the broadest of all. The equivalent Greek verb would be proinai.<BR/><BR/>The Latin verb allows for a natural interpretation that, without clarification, would exclude the Son in the spiration of the Holy Spirit, making it akin to generation. The reason why the verb was chosen instead of a more precise one is because procedere is the word used in the Latin translation of the Gospels.<BR/><BR/>Due to this deficiency of the Latin and to combat Arianism, the Creed was modified in Latin only. Another example of this modification in Latin is the addition of Deum de Deo, not found in the Greek Creed.<BR/><BR/>The problem and the source of the polemic is when one translates the Latin Creed into Greek. A double sourced origin is the result, which is clearly NOT the meaning in Latin.<BR/><BR/>This is also the reason why the Creed in Greek without amendation is sufficient in Catholic liturgies.Gil Garzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12358129065139190265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post-32630143360862805892007-09-15T10:31:00.000-03:002007-09-15T10:31:00.000-03:00Gil,I didn't get into this in the post (since I wa...Gil,<BR/><BR/>I didn't get into this in the post (since I was trying to stay more generally with Trinity and not dive specifically into the filioque), but I just came across Ware on the West and the filioque (p. 50). He notes that the West sought to insert the clause primarily as a defense against Arianism. It sounds from Ware that the much greater beef taken by Orthodoxy was the unilateral insertion by the Pope/the West of the clause (without resort to Council). The underlying theology (or interpretation of a word in John's Gospel) seems to have been a secondary objection (so it was procedure over substance). I'd be curious to learn if you've read a view that differs from this.<BR/><BR/>Peace in Christ,<BR/>Thos.Tom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post-54470200022252967042007-09-14T21:11:00.000-03:002007-09-14T21:11:00.000-03:00Gil,Thanks for the reading assignment; it may be s...Gil,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the reading assignment; it may be some time before I get there. <BR/><BR/>I don't see how the word is amenable to such contrasting interpretations. I assume that when you say "This is the root of the controversy" you mean that this is Nichols' thesis? If it's your thesis, I'd like to hear more substance to how the word could be taken and mistaken.<BR/><BR/>I did a little digging, on your prompt, and found that "ekporeuomai" from John 15:26 can mean "to depart, be discharged, proceed, project, come from, is out going, is going out, issue, proceed out of" (per Strong's). The Latin word used in the Vulgate is "procedit", a conjugation of "procedo", which can mean "to go ahead, proceed, advance, continue".<BR/><BR/>Without having the time to read the book you recommend, it seems that the Latin translation is at least reasonable. I don't believe that Western Christian scholars were so myopic as to study the Latin alone (in fact, I know Origen and Jerome certainly did not). Therefore, I find it hard to believe that a Latin translation of this Greek word could lead scholars to widely different understandings of the nature of the Godhead.<BR/><BR/>I guess my bottom line is, if you have the time to synthesize some of Nichols' argument to help enlighten me as to how the Latin translation is the root of the filioque controversy, that would be great. If not, I certainly understand, and hopefully my studies will eventually lead me to studying this controversy with more depth. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing!<BR/><BR/>Peace in Christ,<BR/>Thos.Tom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8505754445949711172.post-17943896450354310542007-09-14T19:33:00.000-03:002007-09-14T19:33:00.000-03:00I recommend to you, "Rome and the Eastern Churches...I recommend to you, "Rome and the Eastern Churches," by Aidan Nichols. Of particular note is chapter 7, entitled, "The Photian Schism and the Filioque."<BR/><BR/>You may appreciate the fact that the Greek word proceed, found the the 4th Gospel means something very different that the Latin procedere. This is the root of the controversy.Gil Garzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12358129065139190265noreply@blogger.com